HTPC direct to active speakers/power amp and passive speakers

[merovingian]

Originally Posted by logifuse

Apologies if I missed this point being mentioned, but one reason for a receiver is the flexibility if offers. What if you want AM radio or to play with a games console, or watch something using the Tv's inbuilt tuner with good sound? How are you going to connect them to your active set up?

AM radio? I say again, AM radio? Other than grumpy old men, aggrieved with the world and certain that they were destined for greater things than what they actually achieved, the only people who listen to AM are those prone to a strange form of sporting cultural snobbery: listening to the ABC commentary team whilst watching the cricket on channel 9. And even this snobbery lost all reasonable foundation when Geoff Lawson joined the ABC.

In all seriousness, you've raised some reasonable points. From my own point of view, my TV doesn't have a digital tuner, so that aspect matters not to me. And I'm not the least bit interested in listening to AM radio (except to the footy and cricket when in the car). The games console argument is a decent one for gamers. ie. Not me.

In any case, I think it all depends on how someone chooses to look at their HTPC. I like to look at it as the source of absolutely all content and, for me, it is. In which case a power amp is an attractive idea, at least philosophically. That said, I own a Rotel receiver. :-)

[rcork]

I think the point some people are making (or trying to), from the pro A/V receiver side, is that an A/V receiver does simplify things a fair bit.

These days a decent A/V receiver is the central hub for all of your audio and video signal - even up-converting video signal therefore simplifying further the number of video cables you need to run from your A/V rack/cabinet to your display device(s).

Don't you think the simpler solution (with no step-down in qualitly compared to the alternative) is to run a maximum of 2 interconnects (1 HDMI for video, and until the PCs get the audio out via that same HDMI lead - a digital audio (optical or coaxial) lead) from the PC to the A/V receiver, then the receiver does the rest? The A/V receiver processes the audio and sends it to the 6 or 8 speakers it's ALSO powering, sends the video to your display device(s) - no matter what format the video comes in (the ability to up-convert video depends on the receiver you get/have), as well as being able to do this for the other audio and video sources you also have connected to the same A/V receiver.

For me this is definitely the preferred way to go.

[rpo83]

Originally Posted by MSurge

I'll take your word on the speaker location and I know this can make a difference but my main speakers are floor standing Richters so I'm not about to suspend these off the wall. The surround speakers (when I get around to installing them) will be up near ceiling height, and while I'm sure these locations can be improved the rest of the room doesn't lend itself to good acoustics so I'm less concerned. When it's set up in a room with better acoustics then I'd get more worried about it.

Given that for a 7.1 system I'd be looking at four stereo amps to cover it all I think you might be aiming a bit higher with these amps than I had in mind but I would appreciate some pointers or web links that you might be able to put together. PM me with anything that you don't want to post in the forum if you want.

This is a very basic question but I assume a normal power-amp will work fine with the analogue signal from the PC outputs?

Edit : Also just thinking how much of a pain it would be to mount my sub 1.2m off the floor. Nah can't be bothered for now.

Hi MSurge,

As merovingian has stated you would definately buy a multi-channel power amp, last week on ebay was a Rotel RB985 THX certified 5 channel power amp that sold for about $500. I don't sell power amps so i have no vested interest, however this is the calibre of product you should be looking at.

My question that started all this was if anyone knew of a high end sound card (either internal or external that could deode DD &DTS and provide vairiable line level outputs, if you have one of them i would certianly hook it up and have a listen.

I think i didn't elaborate enough on the acoustics either, subwoofers shouls always be placed at the intersection of 2 surfaces, in most of the rooms i calibrate the sub is placed just off the centre line of the room usually between the centre and right speaker, this will usually provide an excellent place to integrate with the other speakers. NEVER place a subwoofer in the centre of a wall.... You can however place it in corners, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Using theoretical boundary gain you will benefit 6dB with one surface, 12dB with 2 surfaces and 18dB with 3 surfaces, so if your sub doesn't have a great deal of SPL by placing it a corner you will get free output, it may not blend with you main speakers as well but it can be a viable alternative. In reality you would maybe achieve a 8-10dB gain from the boundary surfaces as the density of the walls is not great. If you look at most high end studios, their front walls that the speakers are mounted in can be 2 metres thick These rooms are designes to keep all external noise out so the dynamic range of the room is very high, this also means much more acoustical problems as all the energy provides by the speaker is captive and reflects of all surfaces, so complex geometry is used to provide good frequency response. see attached images.

Logifuse,

As the HTPC provides the ultimate in flexability, you can basically have evry source (other than radio) as part of your HTPC, and with AV inputs consoles can also be used.

rcork,

again the HTPC can do a far better job than the video upconvertors in most AV receivers, and to be honest he only reason you need the conversion is all of the low end compromised video signals. A HTPC has one output that can be set for the native display and i think a modern GPU could do a better job than the basic IC in most $1,000 - $2,000 av receivers. The scalers i supply in my jobs are about $3,000 - $4,000 so HTPC's could be a one stop solution. Last year at CEDIA i used my PC from home with a ATI 9800 and was displaying windows media HD and the image quality was stunning, quite a few of my dealers are using mac mini's now running 1920 x 1280 native to their projectors and i have to tell you it looks a damn site better than any outboard product i have seen!

[merovingian]

Originally Posted by rcork

These days a decent A/V receiver is the central hub for all of your audio and video signal - even up-converting video signal therefore simplifying further the number of video cables you need to run from your A/V rack/cabinet to your display device(s).

Whilst I understand that, and I think it will make a lot of sense for a lot of people, I personally think it's the old-skool anti-HTPC view of the world. If all, or very nearly all, your content is sourced from the HTPC, you aren't going to have many cables. Won't need a rack either. Personally I don't think people are getting great value for money out of their HTPC unless it is the central hub of the system instead of the A/V receiver.

Originally Posted by rcork

Don't you think the simpler solution (with no step-down in qualitly compared to the alternative) is to run a maximum of 2 interconnects (1 HDMI for video, and until the PCs get the audio out via that same HDMI lead - a digital audio (optical or coaxial) lead) from the PC to the A/V receiver, then the receiver does the rest?

I don't think it's any simpler than having your HTPC at the core, with the TV/projector and receiver/amp being simple renderers that simply render whatever the HTPC gives them. In my system I also have two interconnects: one SPDIF from HTPC to receiver and one DVI-HDMI from HTPC to TV. (Well I lie slightly, I also have an STB that came wth the TV, and it's hooked up - but I never use it.)

Originally Posted by rcork

The A/V receiver processes the audio and sends it to the 6 or 8 speakers it's ALSO powering, sends the video to your display device(s) - no matter what format the video comes in (the ability to up-convert video depends on the receiver you get/have), as well as being able to do this for the other audio and video sources you also have connected to the same A/V receiver.

HTPC does a pretty good up-convert. Even up-converts to 1080p, whereas many receivers only go 1080i, if they up-convert at all.

I think the A/V setup you're talking about makes sense for someone who wants to have separate components, including legacy, in their system: DVD player, CD player, VCR etc. However, if someone started from scratch, and didn't already own any of those components (like me), I don't see that it would be a more elegant or cost-effective solution than making the HTPC the hub.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks.

[MSurge]

Thanks to rpo83 and merovingian I feel less guilty about using the analogue output from my HTPC.

I guess it all comes down to what else people are using the HTPC system in conjunction with that determines how they are trying to set it up and I expect that for most people the other equipment that have have spent good money on pre-dates the HTPC.

For me my receiver/amp is pre-SPDIF so if I am pretty much stuck with analogue outputs from the HTPC but since I want my HTPC as the central point to do it all then I'm really only after a "dumb" amplifier if I was to upgrade as this allows me to have surround processing in the HTPC. I have seen numerous posts of people battling with their receiver-HTPC connection so I think this connection just adds another level of complexity that I can personally do without.

For now I have had a realistic look at my requirements and while my audio has the capacity to do 7.1, in reality for my setup in a "non-acoustic friendly lounge setup" I think the current 5.1 setup is more than enough and I'll try setting up my amp with 5 different inputs and avoid the receiver processing.

My sub has a built in cross-over with sub connected to the amp and then the main speakers are connected to the sub. The receiver/amp does have a bass output but this isn't adjustable, whereas my sub has a dial on the front panel that lets me tweak the cross-over point to best suit my main speakers.

From a little research it would seem that 5.1 is still the actual standard and 6.1/7.1 are rarely actually encoded in soundtracks so the system is left to process/interpret the 5.1 up to 6.1/7.1 anyway. I'm assuming this is similar to those 'surround' systems that produce a surround sound stage but don't actually do it as per true dolby 5.1, so I feel that the whole 6.1/7.1 is a bit of a con-job anyway.

[rpo83]

Originally Posted by MSurge

Thanks to rpo83 and merovingian I feel less guilty about using the analogue output from my HTPC.

I guess it all comes down to what else people are using the HTPC system in conjunction with that determines how they are trying to set it up and I expect that for most people the other equipment that have have spent good money on pre-dates the HTPC.

For me my receiver/amp is pre-SPDIF so if I am pretty much stuck with analogue outputs from the HTPC but since I want my HTPC as the central point to do it all then I'm really only after a "dumb" amplifier if I was to upgrade as this allows me to have surround processing in the HTPC. I have seen numerous posts of people battling with their receiver-HTPC connection so I think this connection just adds another level of complexity that I can personally do without.

For now I have had a realistic look at my requirements and while my audio has the capacity to do 7.1, in reality for my setup in a "non-acoustic friendly lounge setup" I think the current 5.1 setup is more than enough and I'll try setting up my amp with 5 different inputs and avoid the receiver processing.

My sub has a built in cross-over with sub connected to the amp and then the main speakers are connected to the sub. The receiver/amp does have a bass output but this isn't adjustable, whereas my sub has a dial on the front panel that lets me tweak the cross-over point to best suit my main speakers.

From a little research it would seem that 5.1 is still the actual standard and 6.1/7.1 are rarely actually encoded in soundtracks so the system is left to process/interpret the 5.1 up to 6.1/7.1 anyway. I'm assuming this is similar to those 'surround' systems that produce a surround sound stage but don't actually do it as per true dolby 5.1, so I feel that the whole 6.1/7.1 is a bit of a con-job anyway.

Hi MSurge,

You are partly correct, 7.1 does not exist in the pro world, 6.1 is the limit at the moment, however most broadcasters are only using stereo

Be very careful with setting up your bass mangement, most peoples systems are set up incorrectly.... And yes even those done by reputable installers. You must only apply your low pass x-over once. So if on your subwoofer you can't bypass the x-over make sure you don't have a low pass set on your sound card, otherwise you will have cascading filters and a hole in your frequency response. On your system because your satelites connect to your sub make sure you set your speakers to large as you sub is handling both low and high pass.

Cheers

Steve

[MSurge]

rpo83

Thanks for the heads-up on the sound card settings but I don't have this low-pass set on the HTPC audio and will send the full audio signal to the amp input.

The way I have it set up at the moment is the sub is only in line with the main speakers (tradiational stereo L & R) so the cross-over is only effective on these output from the amp. The remaining rear effects and centre speakers are smaller (thinking of picking up a set of Richter Legend effect speakers to match up with the Richter floorstanding mains) and their signal doesn't pass through the sub and its cross-over.

I expect that this arrangement means that the sub is not picking up the bass from the center and rear effects signals but I'm not sure if it's missing much on these channels. I could swap the sub take it's signal from the low-pass output on the amp (mains L&R now connected direct to amp) so I expect the sub would be receiving all low-pass signal on all channels but I don't have the cross-over adjustment in this arrangement. It's probably just going to come down to trying each option and see what suits.

[rpo83]

Hi MSurge,

what brand and model of sub do you have?

[MSurge]

Sub is a Yamaha - can't remember the model etc off hand but must be about 10 years old. The level of base is more than enough for the rest of my system, though I will turn up the volume level on the sub for movies at times.

Has auto switch-on/off function. Front has one dial for on/off/volume and a second dial to adjust the cross-over.

The volume control on the sub sets it's level relative to the rest of the speakers and this in combination with the cross-over gives a good amount of control without needing the features within the amp.

[MSurge]

Rpo83,

Finally remembered to look it up. Sub is a Yamaha YST-SW80 and found the following link for it.

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/p...4&CTID=5003300